anybody, because i was a repin this. it wasn't ever about me. this is about the collective and i feel blessed being in a sport that made be a team player from that mindset. i have never been about making my $250 million. this is about me making enough money in 1992 so we can see a difference in the violence in chicago. it bothers me the president is from here and this is happening. no way should we be in the condition we were with the amount of championships we won, the amount of money we made, and the number of athletes and famous people from here the city continues to be the way is. that bothers me. >> you see unite? >> in 1989, i am watching a

television report and it comes on and a young buddy says we feel like we are living in a war zone. and felt like we need an organization. first we have to see what is happening here. when you are sick, surgery is required. the operation is to unite ourselves. and the uniting point would be saving the youth. we utilize our ability and economic input to help existing organizations in the community. that is the bases of it. >> you write about a lot of athletes having charities and foundations because your tax break wasn't high. >> it is easy and cool to give out turkey and give out school

items. but what are we doing on the 9-5 bases? my position now is the way the world is now we are not on this every day, 24/7, man, i got to worry about my children. i have four boys and my baby is four years old. i know there is work to do and work has to be done. you have to be courageous and get out of the way. if you are not willing to stand n oon the things and principles that need to be stood on right now it will do that generation -- like right now we have a group of children that don't care about life. they have no hope of getting to 20. why does that mentality

permiate? i know it can happen >> that is a preview with former nba player craig hodges. his book, "long shot: the struggles and triumphs of an nba freedom fighter." you with watching booktv on c-span2. c-span's washington journal live every day. coming up saturday, joining froms new york city, we talk about crime and the validity of claims of it being on the rise. and sarah sparks and editorial project vice president chris swanson on the latest research of corporal punishment in public schools and the number of students affected by physical punishment last year. c-span's washington journal live beginning at 7 eastern saturday morning.

join the discussion. c-span continues on the road to the white house. >> i will be a president, democrat, republican, and independent. >> we are going to win with education, we will win with the second amendment, we are going to win. >> ahead, live coverage of the president and vice presidential debates on c-span, the c-span radio app. monday september 26th is the first presidential debate live in hempstead, new york. and on tuesday, october 4th vise presidential candidates debate. and on sunday october 9th washington university in sign language st. louis hosts a second presidential debate leading up to the third and final debate between hillary clinton and donald trump taking place at the university of nevada, las vegas on october 19th.

live cov rerage on c-span, list free on the app or watch live on demand at c-span.org. from the chicago tribune printers row lit fest writer bradley birzer talks about his bigraphy of of russell clerk. this 45 minute talk includes questions from attendees. >> w i want to say a special thank you to our sponsors. the theme of this year's festival is what is your story? we encourage you to share the stories you hear this weekend on twitter, instagram, or facebook using trlf16.

you can keep the speared of lift vest going all year by downloading the printer's row app where you will find all of the chicago tribune premium book contests, free books for subscribers and the complete schedule. today's program is broadcast live on c-span2 booktv. if there is tooim after for an investigation -- time -- we ask you to use the microphone on the right so the viewers can hear the questions. we ask you to turn off your cellphone ringer and the flash on cameras. please welcome today's interviewing john bearing. [applause]

>> good morning, i love the smell of books in the morning and it is great to be around a bunch of friends who feel the same way. it is my pleasure to help kickoff today's day of lit vest and it is my great pressure to welcome bradley birzer who is the author of "russell kirk: american conservative." bradley is the russell amos clerk chair and a professor of history at hillsdale college. he came over from south central michigan and is here to talk about his book about russell clerk. one of the first questions tr lots of people is who is russell clerk?

the man-is not not known much these days or invoked. brad, your book does many things but helps as a marvelous and bracing introduction or reduction to russell clerk. please before starting give us an overview of this man. >> russell clerk was born in 1918 in plymouth michigan born into extreme poverty. he was very bookish and became interested in all kinds of things if the stories are to believe he read the work of carl marx and thomas jefferson by 11. he read all of cooper and there

was a certain genius to this very, very unusual young man in plymouth. he went to michigan state and aft afterwards she served in the military -- he. when he came back from military experience, he got his d-lit at a scottish university. the university of st. andrews. earned that in 1952 and came back and his dissertation strangely enough became this book that the timing was right. it was published on may 11th and went through 7th editions over his lifetime. there were a number of disparate voices i would say were not leftist. they might be conservative to come degree.

libertarian to another degree but there were a number of voices speaking at the end of the wars and he becomes important. we would never have had a barry gold water movement without kirk as well as a reagan movement without him. he represents that strain of conservatism. ... and what most people may not imagine is that the conservative mind came out in 1953 was very different than the way we kind of offer a shorthand for political thought at this point. you know, we think about conservative and liberal and we think about these things on the

>> about what those terms mean. they often lead to stereotypes, at the time the concert a conservative mine came out, conservative is him wasn't a thing in america. >> and part of what kirk had to do is bring together all of these different strands and give it some kind of coherence. so what he decided to do in his dissertation, and when he wrote the dissertation he had certainly longed to be a well published author. he never never anticipated he would have the kind of success he did. he was a good writer, at had a amazing stylist and a good thinker as well. he certainly did not project, okay this okay this is going to change the world. and even though i think you're absolutely right, john that we have kind of forgotten in this day and age, from about 1953 until 64, once goldwater fails

and that horrific failure in the 1964 presidential election, kirk's fortune go down as well. it will really take the rest of his life, 30 more years to live after that he died in 1994. it takes in those 30 years takes in those 30 years to rebuild his reputation back to where it was before the goldwater debacle. when you say, and it has to be stressed, that kirks conservativism was not political, i think, i think that is fundamental to understanding the original conservative movement. it became political with the goldwater movement. when kirk writes the conservative mind, he is, he is not thinking in terms of a political movement. these are not used for reagan. he is not thinking large defensive free markets. he's in favor of all that but his idea of conservatism is presenting a western face against the soviets.

it wasn't just that we weren't soviet or anti-communist, he actually wanted to figure out a way that we're something that was its own thing. yet he did not want to be ideological as well. a lot of his conservativism is very poetic. it has to do with art,d probably more than it has to do with tax subsidies or military policy. >> and again to set the stage, pre-1953, you think about conservatives not really having a place on the table. they were not a firm cemented part of the spectrum with the definition behind them. keep in mind, the, the country is coming out of the great depression. the country is experiencing the new deal for quite a while. you have radical ideologies germinating abroad. you have a giant war taking place abroad.

there is probably a general feeling that government control in ways bigger than ever before is perhaps a little bit necessary and that modernism was the inevitable path for mankind. then along comes kirk, who presents a different path. >> yes, yes, very anti- modern. he is very leery of this. one of the things we often forget and your question leads beautifully into this, is that modern conservativism really comes out of two impulses. number one, it, it comes out of the fear that there is a collective going on, not just in government but no doubt that conservatives from the beginning were fearful of big government. whether it is what we see radically abroad and the terrace ideological regimes we see in russia, germany, portugal and other places prior to world wari ii, there wasn't just a fear of

that abroad, it was also fear at home throughout the call progressivism that there was a desire to solve all problems are colossal institutions. whether w it was a gm which kirk had no love for, whether as educationa, bureaucracy, say michigan state which kirk was very fearful of these universities, or government. he was as fearful of what he called the cult of the colossal around anything that seemed to be anti-humane. that was one of the impulses that i think was very important for all conservatism and libertarianism at that time in the 1950s.impul the other impulse which we have forgotten and we have even seen modern conservativism, all all of them in scare quotes. we've even seen modern conservativism and it was ase defense of the modern arts. people like russell kirk,

william f buckley, they believe very strongly that our true voice was the voice of socrates, plato, cicero, augustine, and they saw that longline and they believed and i think probably probably correctly, that theseli things are being attacked. it makes sense. i don't agree need to be conspiratorial here. if if national governments get involved in funding universities they're going to want things like science, which science is great, but they are going towh science for making larger bombs. so to kind of round this question out hopefully, one of the things that it is tied to both the fear of what is colossal as well as the loss of the liberal arts is that we are pursuing power without virtue. kirk was absolutely horrified, in the book i'm not sure how well i explain it but i try to explain his feelings about this. he was horrified about the dropping of the atomic bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki. that dropping of the bomb, the development of the bomb, that

physicists would even consider this thing, i think it was just too much for him. i go into this in detail and i hope i hope people do not take kirk as crazy. he saw this as a stoic old response, but he actually wandered as a member of the u.s. military if it was his duty to commit suicide. not because he was depressed, not because he was suicidal, but because our honor as americans had been so tainted by the attack on the ha city's that maybe it was the duty of a good american to actually have recompense to pay for this in a kind of purgatory way. very interesting here. he probably didn't commit suicide, but his letters in his diaries at the time were just horrified by this. >> i wanted to talk a little bit more detail about kirk's brand of conservativism. when we think of liberals or conservatives these days, we almost cannot help but fall into

the trap of stereotypes and caricature. we see almost a cartoonish pop, conservative or liberalism on radio and tv.cart you write that conservativism for kirk was served as a means, mood, and an attitude to conserve, preserve, pass on to future generations the best of the humane tradition rather than to advocate a particular political philosophy, party, or agenda. very different than our shorthand version ofty conservativism right now. can you talk about what was his brand of conservativism and why it set lots of the mines on fire. >> as you said so well just a a few minutes ago, it was not, not, there were not any conservative voices. they were not unified by any means, you had somebody like robert nisbet out at berkeley,

you had leo strauss in chicago, you had kirk, a lot of these people were not coming out of the ivy league switches interesting. there are people who are educated in smaller schools.scto there is a bit, a bit of animosity toward corporate and ivies as well that is coming out in these people. i do not want to suggest that that was a prime motive factor, factor, but they were pretty proud that they could jab the institutions on the east coast as well. conservatism, the word conservativism's first first using the american tradition in the modern sense by a person at one of the seven sister schools. by the name of peter b rick. hee uses that in the in article in the atlantic. you would not get that it is political, he's not talking about t.s. eliot or remembering the great things, it is not conservative in a lyrical sense.

it is not until after world war ii that that term starts getting banded around.ii tha so kirk, again whether he is right or wrong about this, it it is really kirk that does give that label some kind of real strength. it is not a right link five for a party because eisenhower takes him a while to call himself that. robert taft puts it up quickly but he passes away and 53. he starts in it with national review and others. for kirk, that conservatives conservativism, he gives up's six cannons in the book, the conservative mind which defines it. he uses the term canon intentionally, he is a quiet sigh atheist at this point. he will convert to roman catholicism but not until august of 1964. this is a very long journey for him. he is 45 on the edge of 46 when he first took on catholicism.

yet, if you read those cannons in 1953, they sounded deeply religious because they set off by arguing that we should believe in a higher power. we should believe in the author of the natural law. we should believe in the dignity of every human person. he actually in his second dignity tenants he actually sounds like vatican ii. what he is saying in 1953 could have been easilyy >> written by someone in rome during 1952 or 1962, 1965 during the vatican ii council. it is all personalism, very humane in the way that he is thinking about this. i stress, and i think it's important about this. i stress, and i think it's important to note that he uses the term cannon because that meant a truth that wasn't easily defined. so he's trying to avoid a marxian program, he does not want conservativism to be an ideology. he doesn't doesn't

wanted to be a party platform.id it is a way of thinking, that way of thinking is kind of what we might call a stoic, almost agnostic judaism or christianity. it's good enough to have the ethics of socrates really to have this as a way of moving forward. we know, in the history of conservatism of course, from its beginning is very catholic and very jewish. it is not protestant. it's not until really you have the revival of the new right in the 19 seventies. so the great movement is kind of, it has those religious overtones but it is not blatantly religious in the way that we'll think of it with a jerry farwell or oral roberts.in he was out the conservative mind in 1953, it shows that there is not only this point of view, but it also has this very proud

anglo-american heritage that stretches back a couple of centuries and he instantly became the spokesman for what really became a movement. what did the book accomplish and what was the reaction? it is still a beastly imprint at this point. it is very heady stuff. it is not your typical bestseller material, and yet material, and yet that is what tt became. >> that's right, it went through seven additions during his lifetime. the last edition was published in 1986, just about eight years before he passed away. he even says at the beginning, most likely this will be the last revision. the revisions do matter. this is not just a change of a name here here there, in particular each edition changes the last chapter so it kind of looks forward what is happening, what is not. the original title, interestingly enough, interestingly enough was called the conservatives route. kirk thought that all conservativism would be a rearguard action. he cannot imagine anyone

actually stepping for them using this as a way to move into the future. you would always be a way of stopping radical progressives, holding them back to certaininpr degree. of course even though he leaves communism, is always convinced that communists will will win, he is on the losing side. but henry -- his publisher in chicago which would identify with conservativism, he made his money by translating catholic theology in the late 1940s into english. a lot of lot of german scholars and frenchglish. scholars, people had translated and made his money that way before he became known as conservativism. but when kirk publishes his book, it is in the english-speaking world, the conservative mind is published in every major periodical, every major newspaper, several newspapers several newspapers review it twice because it becomes so big that they feel

like they have to go back and look at it again and make sureha they did not get it wrong. almost everybody -- some people are so kirk is a 19th-century man who is thrust into the 20th century, he is a a romantic, which he was. there is no question that kirk is an idealistic romantic. he would would have enjoyed walking tours with others. there's no question about that. he was a very eccentric person. we haven't talked about that yet john. he's as eccentric as they come. that were, conservativism becomes the word, he brings in all of these disparate schools, anti-communist, pro- liberal arts, great books people here in chicago and others, st. john's

university in an apple is. and in santa fe, but it does put together a lot of people. one person who is absolutely taken with this book, strangely enough this book, strangely enough is this pilot from arizona, barry goldwater. that is a catalyst for him. >> and the conservative mindm pretty much begins with edmundep burke. talk a little bit of hit the importance of edmund burke and talk about some of the otherlk people in the book that the other litany of conservative saints if you will. >> it is. that's a great way of putting it. i the conservative mind really is a. [inaudible] it is looking at roughly 29 people, looking, looking at their lives and what they contribute. they don't all agree on that support for kirk. in the book, these 29 characters, some we know well. people like edmund burke, he is well known to, he is well known to most academics at the time. people like alexis , but others we hardly know, there's an secure british figure who deals with, law. a lot of these people

we do not remember very well.erl in america, harvard historian of the french, i think there's that great things but nobody picked set up more. >> there are there are other names we know very well.he boo >> absolutely. t.s. eliot, he ends the book with him. he and e elliot he and elliott became very good friends and 53. they shape each other's thought profoundly. i don't think we could've had a conservatism here or abroad without elliott. without elliott giving without elliott giving his sanction to kirk. but to a go back, certainly bure is important. so kirk, he bookmarks and gives the book ends for the conservative mind starting with burke and john adams. so the two great figures of the days as he sees it. edmund burke in england, john adams here, and

then hands with t.s. eliot and he has 26 figures in between those 29 overall. burke is important. burke is are great figure. i argue in a have the great privilege of teaching american founding, founding of the american public rate teach at hillsdale. i get to teach that every two years. i love it. i make sure that as the students are reading john dickinson or thomas jefferson, we also or thomas jefferson, we also do a good deal of burke.. part of that is because i love kirk and i like burke as well. a huge part of it is burke was the leading person in part to put his life on the line more than once. he was a treasonous at defending american rights. he did that for his whole career. it wasn't just a political political movement, burke truly believe that the americans had inherited the very long tradition of common law by jury, to be innocent until proven guilty, he thought we were the true englishman. it was kirk's ideas well. so well. so there is a sense that for our modern, but i think it's equally

important to say that he is one in a very long line of thinkers. so so even though kirk starts with burke, burke is the inheritor. t the inheritor of socrates, plato and aristotle. he is the inheritor of all of the greats to the restaurant tradition. burke represents that. so for that idea to come forward, that is kirk's understanding that we, as americans, and i would even for the audience especially of those watching c-span, look at ronald reagan. people look back at ronald reg and speeches in 81 and 82, speeches in 81 and 82, he will talk about the greatness of america. what he talks about so importantly is america defending the greatness of theld west. he, like kirk he draws it in. now later i think reagan becomes nationalistic. in his earlier years he's

conscious earns with the western tradition. and that's why kirk picks a burke as well. >> in the conservative mind obviously it set the table for kirk's career. he was a writer throughout his life. he helped found the national review where he was, along with william buckley where he was a columnist, syndicated newspaper columnist. widely read across the country. several other books, important book on t.s. eliot, among others. a novelist, just a creative figure. and if for nothing else he would be remembered for that. despite the fact that early on he did not talk about conservativism as a party, as an agenda, agenda, as politics, he did get very much involved with the politics as you alluded to do with barry goldwater candidacy in 1964.

what prompted that shift in how did that play out? >> that's an awkward subject in a lot of ways. kirk goes against his own principles. i think in many ways kirk, i would say kirk was a man of integrity and he had his faultsh and he really did try to live what he preached. this was not a guy who -- he did make a lot of money, but he had argued as early as 1953, and he takes it from all of the great writers, he said politics is for -- it's not the nicest comment to make. he believed that real change, at least early on, real change came by writing books, he came by dealing with newspaper editors, they came by writing syndicated

columns. he was truly a man of letters. he believe that believed that a real intellectual presence and real change with take at least 25 years. we.as we don't go into congress assuming that we get this one law passed we would get it all figured out. he saw how it would fall in and people again i know i mentioned already, the three greats in society, socrates, plato andk aristotle all came at the end of greece, not during the heyday, they're all nostalgic. the same thing is true with cicero, they all come at the end of their age. in kirk, for calling his book originally the conservative route, he thoughtd that we too were the end of the last and therefore our job would be like medieval monks. we would transcribe, preserve, but then this young senator who has a lot of charisma and even though only about a third of the population like tim, that third really,

really liked him. goldwater was, by all accounts and i'm not a goldwater scholar, but it but it is hard to dislike him and when he met with people he was honest. people used to talk about whenn goldwater and nixon would meet donors, goldwater would never, ever placated donor. if it was gm and gm wanted some kind of subsidy or tariff, he would say no, i would never do that. makes it with say, yes, say, yes, i think we could work something out. t it was a real difference. people would describe nixon as being a promotion, he was promoting the boxing match. goldwater was the actual boxer. i think that is interesting. again again i'm no expert on goldwater or next in. but i don't think goldwater, we

didn't think he lie, i think kirk was pretty taken with that. here. here is a goldwater calling him from washington d.c. in michigan and saying, my two favorite s authors are you and friedrich hayek, i need to need know what i need to say how to make this work. how can i convince people. i think a young kirk was flattered by that. i think it was taken in by that and he became very involved. gold water called him all theta time and they met in places like florida, and they with buckleyf, strategized, we don't want these people on our side, we don't want the radical right. none of these people should be a part of logistical conservatism. that conservatism. that was a good team for a while. but the goldwater movement went off in different directions. kirk did not get involved in politics much after 64. he was not good at it. he was good, if you want an honest politician kirk is fantastic. if you want a winning a winning politician kirk is not

that good. >> along the way he supported reagan, but also supported democrat eugene mccarthy. his run and 76, pet buchanan. >> he loved norman thomas. in 1944, i think it was much more concerned with personality and who that was honest. >> there is obviously a lot of names and influences that kirk enjoyed. it is very enjoyable in yours vy book to go down all of those paths of all of these thinkers who influence kirk's thought. there's probably more ideas per page than a years idea of ted talks. it's absolutely fascinating as

you alluded to he was an interesting character. he was not just a rider off in a room somewhere. lots of lots of eccentricities, a little bit of a prickly nature, talk about the man himself and some of the peculiar rarities,. >> thanks john, john, it's a great question i don't think you could ever walk away without knowing his personality. he was bizarre. my. my favorite story and my wife's favorite story as well, my favorite story about kirk, your before he gets mary. he is a bachelor all the way up until 1964. he marries just about one month before he turns 46. marries this beautiful woman, she, she had been a model in neo york, extremely intelligent and still lives in michigan and runs the kirk center, a force of nature. incredible person and they were a great team. a year before he gets married he always traveled the world, not as young man but once he went off and served in the military became unanimoushe with traveling. he traveled throughout north africa, south africa, africa, all of asia, all of europe, he would usually live on peanut

butter he whatever he had he had. money was only a means to an end. but so in 1963, he and hungarian scholar decide they're going to spend the summer, now i can see may be walking across all of north africa in the winter but they decided to pick this summer. they walk across north africa and everywhere kirk goes, because he is kirk, he always carries with him a portable typewriter. that thing is everywhere. and his letters, i am 4810 in all my years 48 and in all my years of researching i have never seen a body of letters like what kirk left.a the guy never stopped writing.ep he could do hundred 20 words a minute. had a photographic memory. so 1963 goes across the desert

with his hungarian scholar. he wears, the whole time a three-piece tweed suit across the moroccan desert. he carries with him, not only his typewriter, but he has this huge cane that has a sword in it. tsa would not allow this now obviously, he usually carried a revolver revolver wherever he went. just an absolute eccentric. of course children followed him everywhere, this is a bizarre character walking across. handsr up in up in europe after this whole thing. he gets two and opera in italy i think he's in florence. they are late. he and his friend, they friend, they show up at this opera after this journey and he wore, in addition to wearing his three-piece suit everywhere, he had a count dracula cape that he had one for one of his horse stories. he had gotten it it the prize. he loved wearing this high color cape. so he showed up at the opera nestlé. the security guard would not let them in at all.ec no way, they were late the doors

not openly. so kirk's princess do you not understand, this is russell kirk. he is the duke of mccall scott. the guard, oh, i did not know his from the duchy. >> so this is little 600 person village in michigan and they let him in. >> so a small town in michigan was his home. he rebuilt his home in a rather grandiose manner. >> yes. this is the other story about kirk we don't forget. if you end up reading the book and i hope you do, the one thing to take away that i think is so brilliant about kirk, and i ended the book with this because if i start with this nobody will believe it. but kirk did make millions of dollars during his

lifetime. not all from his books but especially from his fiction. he did very well with fiction. no most people who know most people who know his fiction wrote these gothic horse storiek do not know he's founder of postwar conservatism and vice versa. the thing that is most impressive about him is that when he died his basically broke. he gave everything away. he and his wife used to drive into grand rapids, they would look for homeless people, pick them up and anybody wanted to come from cambodia, ethiopia, anyone escaping from communism and fascism, they opened their house to them. so the daughters, they have four daughters, they would wake up every morning, they never morning, they never knew who would be a breakfast with them. at times there are 18 ethiopians are 30 cambodians, vietnamese, all these people. one of. one of my colleagues, when my closest friends, he was brought out a former yugoslavia because of kirk.in eve we don't often remember that about these guys, kirk trulyer live this in every way. one of the persons and i think this is what you are alluding to, one o, the persons kirk matt was an ex-con was on parole from upstate new york who happened to

be walking through michigan in the late 1960s. his wife met him by the name of clinton wallace. kirk that the guy was fascinating and invited him to sunday brunch. they loved they loved him and invited him to stay. he lived with them and called the parole office and said will take care of the sky. clinton wallace ends up living there on an actual day, he leaves the great to the fireplace open and they burn down kirk's home. they have to rebuild it after that. it is this a beautiful, ornate structure. but here's what is beautiful. in saint michaels saint michaels cemetery which is a few miles from acosta, they bury clinton wallace, he died around 1978, his tombstone is next to russell kirk's but it is does not say hobo, it doesn't say homeless drifter, expel them. doesn't say homeless drifter, ex- felon.

it says clinton wallace, night -- k and ig ht of the road. and that is kirk. he loved people who love stories of people but he was also interesting. so kirk liked him. he was that eccentric too. he was. he was just not on the criminal side. >> let me ask you something you might imagine kirk with think about what would go on these days. i don't mean to put you in his mind, but who better task than somebody ask than somebody who has put together this biography.te while what he think about today's political environment? >> he would be horrified. >> in every way he would be horrified. i think two things would'vee bothered him immensely. he spent the last three years of his life combating this. he was, right or wrong he thought that george bushes policy, was against everything that american really stood for . . he was worried about the first gulf war.

he saw this as our first into american empire. he was -- he spent the first three years, i don't think-really successful and run out of the conservative movement, but he was very much against this. he thought bush betray it had ... >> nep he would not have predic that but he was worried about the possibility. but even more important, and i don't want to necessarily name names, but theed ideaf of radio

shows -- the idea of radio shows dedicated to conservatism as art and entertainment and selling it as a radio or tv show. what we are doing here, john, where we have having a discussion and you are letting me talk but what we are doing in taking 35-45 minutes and actually thinking about an idea that was what we should be doing. he might have disagreed but that was the proper way of doing news. there were people like ann ran who were going right at him. he sat back and disagreed with her strong brand of individualism. his brand was charitable. he let her talk and answered calmly and she was frustrated.

with malcolm-x, same thing, half hour discussion. and i think that was important. sou sou sound bytes wasn't his thing. >> in closing we wanted to open the floor to any questions about russell clerk or this book. lun last question and we'll close in brief. russell cleck's legacy. >> we have one question and we will get to that. >> sure. >> two questions. one is what is his reaction to what happened in the '60s?